Education meeting of November the 17th, 2010

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Restarting of education activities, general discussion.


(20:27:06)*reinhard hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:06)*tjensch hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:06)*grahl hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:06)*guido hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:06)*ato hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:07)*maelle hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:07)*stargrave hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:27:07)*nicoulas hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:16:41)*tjensch:*and the rest of the time we are available for discussion, both the presentations as well the topic in general

(20:17:14)*tjensch:*a year already has passed since the last edu meeting took place

(20:17:40)*tjensch:*we got a lot of input, sorted and worked on it

(20:18:36)*tjensch:*one of the most visible results is the wiki category on free software in education

(20:18:59)*tjensch:*guido will give an overview about that part

(20:20:04)*tjensch:*getting in touch with the real world with our good arguments is important too, maelle likes to share her experiences during the BLIT (one of the free software days in germany)

(20:20:19)*guido:*Yes, we've been gathering info on the matter by country on this page:

(20:20:39)*guido:*and I hope we continue to do so :)

(20:20:40)*tjensch:*and me will sum up a little bit at the end

(20:20:56)*tjensch:*so, guido - the floor is yours

(20:22:14)*guido:*The subject is so vast, that I didn't know to start and wanted to sort it out a little bit.

(20:22:18)*tjensch:*you created it as 'yet another link collection' ;) - how do you collect the links

(20:22:51)*guido:*reading news, rss feeds, following certain groups, etc

(20:23:19)*guido:*the idea was to have a central point to gather info about FS in education

(20:23:53)*guido:*Recently, I divided the possible activities into groups of stakeholders involved


(20:24:37)*guido:*parents, teachers/professors, administration, polititians, developer/technicians/maintainers, advocats/allies/helpers

(20:25:00)*guido:*I think work needs to be done on and with each group

(20:25:39)*guido:*but for us as FSFE, I see our focus on politicians and activists

(20:26:09)*guido:*and I was hoping to get some feed back on the idea and the categories during this meeting

(20:27:07)*reinhard has set the subject to: This is where the Fellows meet*

(20:27:19)*guido:*I did write it down in detail in a blogpost, but what I wrote above captures it already, I'd say


(20:28:14)*tjensch:*yep, the link list is very helpful for me and the paper i am writing about the european initiatives

(20:29:47)*tjensch:*how do you like to develop the wiki page?

(20:30:38)*guido:*I put links to each category on the main page for edu:

(20:30:55)*tjensch:*or better: how do you like the wiki page to develop

(20:30:56)*guido:*and each page has a certain structure

(20:31:44)*guido:*I'd like to organize the info we have in a manner that volunteers can easily get an overview of what can be done

(20:31:59)*guido:*and what projects already exist, etc

(20:31:59)*maelle:*what's the final goal of the wiki page ?

(20:32:12)*nicoulas:*hello everyone

(20:32:15)*nicoulas:*same question


(20:32:29)*maelle:*to be a repository of information or rather a place to work project out ?

(20:32:36)*tjensch:*yep, that is a service oriented perspective

(20:33:40)*tjensch:*hello nicoulas

(20:33:45)*guido:*I'd like to see the "link collection" page the repository of information

(20:34:19)*guido:*and the category pages a quick info sheet for everybody what can be done and what groups are working in the field

(20:34:55)*guido:*Some people/Fellows have already strings to certain groups, so they can pick something from that page

(20:35:16)*guido:*maybe the know a teacher, or a developer

(20:36:02)*Jil hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:36:18)*guido:*did you get the idea?

(20:37:19)*tjensch:*yep, that is an interesting and good development


(20:37:52)*guido:*The default structure includes Organisations, projects, communication platforms, tips for argumentation with this group, how a member of this group can help us

(20:38:02)*maelle:*but I think it has to be made more clear like having really separate pages for separate targets and links them together

(20:38:21)*tjensch:*personally i always struggle with the wiki structure

(20:38:27)*maelle:*I too

(20:38:39)*maelle:*I just se what it should be without knowing how to realize it


(20:40:04)*tjensch:*so, the next step would be to fill that structure with information


(20:40:31)*guido:*much can be taken from the "link collection" which is on my todo list right now

(20:40:57)*guido:*but I hope, most will develop through specific projects and experiences

(20:41:22)*tjensch:*because the structure is quite good and the headlines do cover all possible information

(20:43:12)*tjensch:*so, every fellow is invited to do some sorting of the link list in his/her bored/low-power time ;)

(20:43:57)*guido:*yes! and also provide more infos and news to the matter!

(20:44:11)*nicoulas:*in my opinion the page definitely has to be divided

(20:44:27)*guido:*which page, the link collection?

(20:44:28)*grahl hat den Raum verlassen.*

(20:44:29)*nicoulas:*it is far too long for anyone landing on it for the first tim


(20:44:46)*maelle:*I still think that before thinking about the structure of the page / link collection, we have to have a concrete idea of what we want to do with the information

(20:45:02)*nicoulas:*for example

(20:45:10)*tjensch:*yep, that's why guido adapted the Ostergaard structure to the wiki

(20:45:13)*maelle:*if it is to make reports, or to see where the administrations are more friendly or where there is a lack of activity etc

(20:45:29)*tjensch:*and split it up into the specific target groups

(20:46:25)*guido:*Much of the link collection doesn't really fit in the category pages, I fear

(20:46:45)*nicoulas:*still one does not know where to begin

(20:46:52)*guido:*I think, to spilt the link collection is not hard

(20:47:21)*guido:*@nicoulas: the pages tell how to help

(20:47:21)*tjensch:*;) - it is just some manual work

(20:47:30)*maelle:*and a lot of patience

(20:47:42)*tjensch:*yep, fiddleing with the wiki code

(20:47:45)*guido:*you just have to pick a group that's close to you

(20:48:21)*nicoulas:*okay, so this should be said in the intro paragrap

(20:48:32)*guido:*Deviding the link collection in multiple pages by country will not take long

(20:48:59)*guido:*ok, I'll change that later. Thanks!

(20:49:02)*nicoulas:*and maybe "general information" should not be mixed with the country list

(20:49:21)*tjensch:*well, i would structure it either by the target groups or by the country

(20:49:29)*tjensch:*both together doesnt really work

(20:49:29)*maelle:*I think - if possible- there should be a cross cutting structure

(20:49:44)*maelle:*so that you get the possibility of searching an info by country or by theme

(20:49:49)*tjensch:*and the target group division is more appealing to me

(20:49:56)*maelle:*I agree

(20:50:26)*mkesper hat den Raum betreten.*

(20:50:45)*tjensch:*that way one sees what example are available in different countries

(20:50:51)*guido:*I'd like to keep both structures

(20:50:59)*nicoulas:*me too

(20:52:23)*tjensch:*afaik the link list is composed of news entries which are somewhat the basis for the target group pages and the headlines there

(20:53:32)*mkesper:*Sorry almost forgot the meeting.

(20:53:51)*guido:*the linklist ist sorted by country, it includes news, groups, case studies, companies that provide support, etc

(20:53:52)*tjensch:*one practical outcome of the Ostergaard pattern is

(/could) getting in touch with the public

(20:54:00)*tjensch:*mkesper: n/p

(20:54:39)*tjensch:*as maelle (and nicoulas?) had the opportunity at the BLIT recently

(20:54:39)*nicoulas:*what's the Oystergaard pattern?

(20:55:23)*tjensch:*nicoulas: hihihi... (watched to much BigBangTheory)

(20:55:31)*guido:*the categorization by stakeholders

(20:55:41)*guido:*I think that was meant, right?



(20:56:15)*nicoulas:*ba stakeholders we mean actors related to the field?


(20:56:25)*tjensch:*so, maybe maelle and nicoulas could share with us, how our arguments work in the real world ;)



(20:56:56)*tjensch:*nicoulas: have a look at guido's blog post about it:

(20:57:14)*maelle:*... late comers who miss the beginning of the discsussion ...




(20:58:21)*nicoulas:*I've read the beginning of the discussion -- I'm just willing to read to much at the same time, erf

(20:59:12)*tjensch:*so, maelle - the floor is yours


(20:59:39)*maelle:*so for the BLIT, we didn't get the opprotunity to talk to a lot of people specifically on the education matters


(21:00:03)*maelle:*concerning the flyers, their goal is to have this targetted approach Guido evoked earlier

(21:00:16)*maelle:*What I have seen as important categories werer the students

(21:00:18)*maelle:*the parents

(21:00:24)****mkesper*is afk, sorry

(21:00:28)*maelle:*and the schools bzw the administration

(21:00:36)*maelle:*the one on the sc


(21:00:54)*maelle:*the one for the schools and administration has bee nthe one that has been most looked at

(21:01:02)*maelle:*(we didn't have a lot of students)

(21:01:16)*maelle:*but on this flyer, we discussed with Nico that we should split it

(21:01:25)*maelle:*to have one flyer for schools and one for university

(21:01:34)*maelle:*because we think first the vocabulary is different

(21:01:39)*maelle:*and second the scales are also

(21:01:56)*maelle:*most of the time, I have the impression that our arguments work

(21:02:04)*maelle:*but that the audience is not ready to accept them

(21:02:06)*maelle:*I mean

(21:02:16)*guido:*do you have a pointer to the leaflets at hand?

(21:02:40)*maelle:*2 sec


(21:02:58)*maelle:*the one for the parents is not approved

(21:03:04)*maelle:*as you know, Guido

(21:03:32)*guido:*sorry, I couldn't think of it and I'm not at my own machine :/

(21:03:54)*maelle:*for me the problem is not the arguments, rather that people think 1) it is complicated to change 2) teachers prefer to teach what they have learnt 3)the IT responsibles in schools don't help

(21:04:21)*maelle:*(this was not a reproach, rather a reminder that it shall not be considered here as having good arguments / formulations)

(21:04:39)*tjensch:*yep, implementation is the difficulty

(21:04:56)*maelle:*what I wanted to ask is who do we want to target first ?

(21:05:19)*maelle:*I think on a general basis, we need the administrations / gov to agree on the benefits of FS

(21:05:33)*rejas hat den Raum betreten.*

(21:05:38)*maelle:*but what can really change things is if teachers get involved and make things change in their place of work

(21:05:47)*tjensch:*as FSFE i agree with guido to target the activists etc

(21:06:08)*maelle:*so I think that we have rather to push on the side of teachers and head of informatics in universities / schools

(21:06:08)*tjensch:*on the ground in Leipzig we target the parents

(21:06:20)*maelle:*and that was my next point,

(21:06:46)*maelle:*the parents need to be taught also so that they don't directly think that the schools is ruining the future of their children in not teaching them windows

(21:07:28)*tjensch:*yep, the approach of the (forked) edu-group is to use the power of the parents to make the schools move

(21:07:43)*maelle:*I think parents have less power that insiders i.e. teachers

(21:07:51)*maelle:*(at least it is the case in France)

(21:08:05)*guido:*That's intersting

(21:08:26)*tjensch:*(forked as in seperate meetings as fellowship group)

(21:08:48)*guido:*the Thing is, that in most German federal states, the schools have a lot of freedom to chose the software they teach with

(21:08:51)*tjensch:*well, that is then a difference in the political systems


(21:09:10)*maelle:*I don't see it that broad with gov etc

(21:09:18)*maelle:*I just see at the scale of the teaching body

(21:09:30)*maelle:*who decides within the school

(21:09:31)*tjensch:*and teachers are quite 'afraid' of parents

(21:09:38)*maelle:*not inFrance

(21:09:50)*maelle:*(and in highschool they are afraid of students :p)

(21:10:28)*maelle:*seriously speaking

(21:10:52)*maelle:*I think that parents have a power, but they have no influence if teachers are not convinced and if they don't know about FS

(21:11:23)*guido:*and do the teachers in France decide what software to use?

(21:11:42)*maelle:*the fact is that schools are doted with licenses

(21:11:57)*maelle:*but they could impose that some computers run linux

(21:12:13)*maelle:*I have had teachers that promoted free software although it was not their field

(21:12:25)*maelle:*that wanted us to get informed about it and to try them

(21:12:41)*maelle:*so if they had guidance, they could influence the administration of the school

(21:13:13)*maelle:*I don't know if Nico has the same impression as I do

(21:13:58)*nicoulas:*in my Lycée there was not much of a computer room with free access

(21:13:59)*guido:*So, it's the administration that decides at the end?

(21:14:20)*nicoulas:*computers were rather dispatched in rooms that needed it (languages, chemistry...)

(21:14:25)*maelle:*the region decides how much money the lycee (high school) gets

(21:14:33)*maelle:*the school decides how to spend it


(21:14:37)*nicoulas:*and then I was in an informatics engineer school ;))

(21:15:30)*nicoulas:*there must be someone to install and maintain stuff, otherwise nobody will want to install such an unusual system as linux

(21:15:46)*nicoulas:*and maybe that's also a weak point of schools

(21:15:51)*maelle:*and in your school, I mean before baccalaureat or before college ?

(21:16:09)*nicoulas:*in collège you mean ? :)

(21:16:26)*maelle:*ecole primaire colelge lycee

(21:16:27)*nicoulas:*I was not keen on FS (did not know it) at that time...


(21:16:40)*nicoulas:*and it wasn't that easy to use as it is today


(21:17:11)*nicoulas:*so schools would ave really need a specialist

(21:17:23)*maelle:*I sadly have to leave you all - or at least participate a lot less (parallel appointment at half past) so I keep reading but I can't participate as much...

(21:17:23)*nicoulas:*where today they just need someone that has already installed a linux distro

(21:17:24)*guido:*yes, commited teachers can use Live-systems on USB-sticks nowadays :)

(21:17:24)*mkesper hat den Raum verlassen.*


(21:17:44)*tjensch:*although i dont think this is sustainable nicoulas

(21:17:49)*nicoulas:*hm, speed won't give that good an feeling, but you're right too

(21:18:17)*nicoulas:*I'll hold the French flag then :)

(21:19:12)*tjensch:*schools as well as public administration should get used to the idea of paying for service...

(21:19:13)*nicoulas:*the thing is, if a linux distribution happens to be installed in parallel on every (or some) computers in the school, then some students will try it

(21:19:16)*nicoulas:*it's inevitable

(21:19:23)*nicoulas:*and in my opinion incredibly powerful

(21:19:45)*tjensch:*true enough


(21:19:49)*nicoulas:*the service "installation and maintenance"?


(21:20:25)*mkesper hat den Raum betreten.*

(21:20:28)*nicoulas:*sure, but that's not a good argument in their eyes ;)

(21:20:53)*tjensch:*it is not really well, sustainable, to just have a guy who is personally interested in Free Software

(21:21:01)*nicoulas:*I would do that for free by the way



(21:21:37)*guido:*I think it's best to have professionals to that and let teachers teach

(21:21:39)*tjensch:*school boxes need to have a specific guaranteed uptime etc.


(21:21:59)*tjensch:*yep, guido, that is my argument too



(21:22:27)*nicoulas:*I'm sure it should be that big a deal

(21:22:48)*tjensch:*actually, i am writing a paper on that, but will wait for



(21:22:57)*tjensch:*rauchmelder in der kueche

(21:23:12)*mkesper:*tjensch: wrong place...

(21:23:18)*nicoulas:*I'm sure that (in France) there are very few resources allocated to installing windows/software

(21:23:30)*nicoulas:*mkesper: nicht unbedingt

(21:24:06)*nicoulas:*hm so maybe we should add the category "technical staff"?

(21:25:15)*guido:*I put that in "Developers/Maintainers, etc"

(21:25:58)*tjensch:*ok, false alarm

(21:26:25)*guido:*that's good to hear :)

(21:26:52)*nicoulas:*I'm not sure it is the same

(21:27:37)*guido:*It's certainly not the same, but I thought close enough to put on one page

(21:27:57)*guido:*in any event, they all are concerned in the technical side of the subject

(21:28:05)*tjensch:*i am writing a paper on european deployment strategies of free software in schools, but will wait for the professors comments before publishing it

(21:28:35)*guido:*that sounds interesting. When do you expect it to be published?

(21:28:53)*tjensch:*christmas is coming early this year :P

(21:28:56)*nicoulas:*will you tell us then? ;)

(21:29:05)*guido:*I hope so :)

(21:29:16)*tjensch:*need to finish the damn thing anyway

(21:29:31)*guido:*@nicoulas: I actually called it: Developers, technicians and maintainers <>

(21:29:39)*nicoulas:*okay, good

(21:30:12)*nicoulas:*(by the way, I see advocat recurrently on the pages, I believe it's advocate)

(21:30:16)*guido:*if there is need for it, we can always split it up

(21:31:13)*guido:*yes, you are right. I'll change that too. Thanks!

(21:32:44)*nicoulas:*shall I make other remarks concerning the wiki pages?

(21:32:56)*tjensch:*feel free


(21:33:23)*nicoulas:*on /Education: push "see also" section to the bottom

(21:33:36)*nicoulas:*add an introductory paragraph

(21:34:24)*nicoulas:*aah, I just stumbled across Østergaard, finally :)

(21:35:20)*mkesper:*nicoulas: Yes, the presentation is cool. I read it just now

(21:36:09)*tjensch:*else i would sum up the meeting and close the official meeting

(21:38:05)*nicoulas:*please go with the summary

(21:38:10)*tjensch:*thank you very much for the presentation of the work in progress

(21:38:20)*nicoulas:*(I think we can speak hours about education...)


(21:38:55)*tjensch:*the proposed categories are quite good and we can build on that in the future

(21:39:18)*tjensch:*as well as the related headlines/topics

(21:40:16)*tjensch:*as a call for participation with specific tasks guido's blog post is a good entry point, too

(21:41:37)*tjensch:*one thing i like to propose as an outcome of this fellowship-meeting on education is to think about an edu-team jabber meeting once a month

(21:42:05)*maelle:*yes but more targetted, I think, a one issue with one goal

(21:42:41)*guido:*sounds good

(21:42:47)*tjensch:*the challenge with the edu-team is that most of us dont really know each other very well

(21:43:02)*nicoulas:*sounds good

(21:43:15)*tjensch:*so, on the one hand, a monthly jabber meeting will encrease workload

(21:43:16)*guido:*I hope I'll see some of you soon

(21:43:25)*nicoulas:*we could organise a meeting (what about Berlin :))

(21:43:26)*mkesper:*edu-team Stammtisch

(21:43:41)*tjensch:*but might also work in favour of group-dynamics

(21:43:48)*nicoulas:*everyone is of course invited to come to the office and have a chat with us

(21:43:48)*tjensch:*nicoulas: i propose leipzig

(21:44:09)*tjensch:*i can personally host 2+ people


(21:44:34)*nicoulas:*I'd like too, Leipzig is not so far

(21:44:42)*maelle:*works for me

(21:44:55)*maelle:*who of you is at the Roboter Tag in Bonn?

(21:45:00)*guido:*never been there and always wanted to :)

(21:45:02)*tjensch:*not me

(21:45:07)*guido:*I will

(21:45:21)*nicoulas:*so guido: we'll meet there

(21:45:26)*nicoulas:*a least


(21:46:01)*tjensch:*so, wrt monthly meeting: i'll send some options via the list


(21:46:27)*tjensch:*wrt to physical meetings: we should also think about that

(21:46:31)*guido:*do the other fellows have any topics on their wishlist?

(21:46:34)*mkesper:*maelle: i'll be there

(21:46:55)*rejas hat den Raum verlassen (offline).*

(21:47:03)*mkesper:*ok CU soon

(21:47:11)*tjensch:*maybe at the then first edu-team@jabber

(21:47:33)*guido:*all right, sounds like a plan! :)

(21:47:46)*nicoulas:*sounds like a good plan

(21:48:01)*tjensch:*in Leipzig i have a whole hackerspace at my disposal

(21:49:07)*tjensch:*guess, i'll blog about the meeting

(21:49:22)*tjensch:*but you are warmly invited to blog your pov, too ;)

(21:49:51)*tjensch:*thank you for your attendance

(21:49:55)*tjensch:*class dismissed.


(21:50:01)*guido:*thanks for moderating :)

(21:50:36)*guido:*have to leave now anyway. See you all soon


(21:51:01)*tjensch:*yep, me too - will have a closer look at that smoke detector in the kitchen oO

(21:51:10)*guido hat den Raum verlassen.*



(21:52:20)*mkesper hat den Raum verlassen.*

Activities/Education/Meetings/2010-11-17_Minutes (last edited 2016-03-11 17:34:24 by jzarl)