Netherlands online get-together

Start

2024-03-20 20:00 CET

End

22:00 CET

Location

On Netherlands room on FSFE conference server

Description

Online get-together of Netherlands

NL: Onze online localgroup bijeenkomst. Deze is open voor iedereen en we schakelen naar het Engels als niet iedereen Nederlands begrijpt.
EN: Our online localgroup meeting. It is open for everybody, and we'll switch to English if not everybody understands Dutch.

Create a Markdown document on the Nextcloud server and share it here for similar functionality as an Etherpad.

Contribute to the agenda in advance or during the meeting on the dedicated notes document: https://share.fsfe.org/s/dNBkJSSAYZwPTxX

This page will be updated with a link to the collaborative agenda.

Attendance

• André
• Sam
• Nico
• Laszlo

Agenda + minutes

• Recent events https://fsfe.org/events/events.html

  • 16 March 2024 ⭐ NLLGG, Utrecht
    • FSFE Booth
      • Interesting conversations
      • Interest in T-Shirts
      • Received donations
      • Maybe sell merchandise again in the future, like on the roof terrace.
      • Side discussion: interest in GNU merchandise, via FSF.

• Upcoming events https://fsfe.org/events/events.html

  • 4 April 2024 https://openforumeurope.org/event/open-source-driving-the-european-digital-decade-belgium/

  • 4-5 May 2024 Libreplanet https://libreplanet.org/2024/

  • 1-2 June 2024 ⭐ T-Dose, Geldrop
    • Idea track Public Code
    • Opportunities to generate discussion on moving forward, from different perspectives
    • Will support this from FSFE-perspective
    • Suggestions for presentations are welcome
    • FSFE Booth?
      • Yes, both days

  • 6-7 June 2024 PublicSpaces conference Amsterdam

    • https://publicspaces.net/2024/02/01/save-the-date-publicspaces-conferentie-2024/

• FSFE updates https://fsfe.org/news/news.nl.html

  • Device Neutrality https://fsfe.org/news/2024/news-20240307-01.nl.html#translations

• Apps
  • Extensive discussion on the FSFE discussion list about banking apps.
  • Knab phase-out happened reidentification only via the app.
  • Rabobank and ING still provide identifier/scanning.
  • ING identifier is not well known with support persons, more of an edge case.

  • Similar situation for identification https://blogs.fsfe.org/nico.rikken/2022/03/16/dutch-digital-identity-system-crisis/

  • Is there a legal ground to force parties to allow devices? Easier for government then for private companies.
  • Triodos: no news on their proprietary app.
  • Mostly elderly and disabled people in a similar situation.

  • https://www.tweedekamer.nl/debat_en_vergadering/commissievergaderingen/details?id=2023A04186 and document https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=2024D09367

    • eIDAS comes with some guarantees.

    • A document by banks from January 2023, mostly about analog alternatives https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/wp-content/uploads/commitment-banken-beter-toegankelijk-betalingsverkeer.pdf

      • Nederlandse Vereniging van Banken https://www.nvb.nl/ accessibility https://www.nvb.nl/themas/digitaal-van-dienst/toegang-in-de-digitale-wereld/

        • Also by the Dutch National Bank https://www.dnb.nl/inclusieve-samenleving/maatschappelijk-overleg-betalingsverkeer/

      • Betaalvereniging Nederland https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/ with page on mobile payment https://www.betaalvereniging.nl/betaalproducten-en-diensten/mobiel-betalen/

  • Expected digital alternative: app in website, still no control over the source code, but more control over a website.
  • Probably lack of awareness in companies about alternatives of apps. Apps have become the default. Many negative sides: also for the party providing the app.

  • App for everything. Example of recording thrash cleaning. http://mijnmooiestraat.be/

    • Also more regular people are reluctant to install apps, especially for one-off use.
    • Apps for supermarket discount too. Privacy comes at a cost.

      • Similar: paying Facebook for no advertising https://tweakers.net/nieuws/219912/meta-wil-advertentievrije-abos-goedkoper-maken-wegens-zorgen-eu-toezichthouders.html

  • DigiD should have FOSS options available in the future, so for now SMS will be available.
  • Allies: organisations for elderly.
  • Triodos: maybe do provide identifiers as a gift, not as a right.
  • Next steps: campaigning, collaborating with partner organisations and reaching out to parties.
  • Apps on interoperability layer of alternative OS's might work, but no guarantees.

  • Digitaaldwang https://digitalcourage.de/digitalzwang (German)

  • Campaign page could list banks with a rating. Similar to https://www.eerlijkegeldwijzer.nl/bankwijzer/beleidsscores/ and https://www.fairfin.be/bankwijzer

  • Probably most banking apps use similar frameworks. Some might allow publishing as webbapp.

  • Use government involvement in a bank to steer policy? In Belgium Belfius bank. Volksbank in the Netherlands https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Volksbank

  • DigiD in the Netherlands, higher security levels require the app.

  • Source code DigiD has been requested and published https://github.com/MinBZK/woo-besluit-broncode-digid-app but is probably not enough to get a working app. Idea could be to build a Linux app and authenticate using a NFC-scanner.

    • PWA NFC support https://caniuse.com/webnfc and https://whatpwacando.today/nfc/ only on Chrome for Android.

  • Recommendations can be provided as alternatives for apps. Like PWA's, FIDO.
  • Maybe eID as an opportunity? If the app is Free Software and is used as a basis for authentication.
  • Brainstorm criteria for Free Software banking:
    • All functionality in the website
    • No app needed for authentication, can be an issued device or solution via token
    • Premium: banking via API's
    • Optimum: no app needed: PWA/.... Lesser: code of app available, app in F-Droid available
    • Red: only app is available. Orange: some functionality only in the app. Green: works without app.
      • Idea to use this scoring system:
      • Knab: red (banking via website, but phasing out identifier)

      • Bunq: red (app-only) idea to use API for a FOSS app https://github.com/BunqCommunity/BunqDesktop

      • Triodos: red/orange: phasing out identifier (red) and not all functionality in the website (orange)
      • Ing: green (bit towards orange): less supported route, more of a hassle.
• Ada Zangemann book translation

  • Coordination: https://share.fsfe.org/apps/files/?dir=/Netherlands/Translations/Ada%20Zangemann%20NL&fileid=930818

Other meetings on the wiki overview page: Events/Netherlands

Category/FellowshipEvents Category/Netherlands